From the Heart of the Amazon

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Today we have a truly inspiring guest with us, Doctor Rosa Vasquez Espinosa. Doctor Rosa is a peruvian chemical biologist, National Geographic explorer and award winning artist. Currently based between the UK and Peru, she spearheads conservation and science initiatives within the Amazon rainforest. She also conducts programs in sustainability, education, leadership and nature exploration, inspired by lessons from the Amazon and other expeditions worldwide. Join us as we explore Rosas journey. Her insightful work on elevating indigenous knowledge, her innovative conservation projects, and how she effectively bridges traditional wisdom with contemporary scientific research. Learn about her foundations mission to document and share the rich traditions of amazonian and andean communities, her efforts to foster a deeper connection with nature, and the critical questions driving her work today. This podcast is brought to you by the International Wildlife Coexistence Network. Building a future in service to life. I'm your host, Josh Adler, and this is for the wild ones. [00:01:37] Speaker B: I am originally from Peru and I live in England now. But I am in and out of Peru quite often and I am a bit of different things by training. I am a scientist, PhD in chemical biology. Did all my degrees in the US. Thoroughly in depth academic research. I'm also a conservationist. My upbringing back home, it's very linked to indigenous worldviews because of my ancestry from andean and amazonian families. I'm also an artist. I used to dive quite deeply in the dance world before committing fully to science. So I lead projects and an organization that it's looking to elevate indigenous knowledge to the same status and platform that scientific knowledge has in terms of our natural world. Why? To give opportunities that perhaps I didn't have growing up specifically in the peruvian Amazon. Two, to show that the Amazon goes beyond what people typically think of or know of, and to give hope for people to reconnect with nature and to remember that not everything is doomed and rather be inspired to take action. [00:02:59] Speaker C: Wow, that's a very rich background. What is it that has brought you to the UK? [00:03:05] Speaker B: My family. So my husband is british. We met in the US and decided to kind of set base in the UK. In a way. I did also see it as a beneficial move towards the foundation work that we do for conservation because it does allow me to connect with international collaborators and just elevate the voice. So I see myself almost kind of like a bridge. But all of our work on the ground happens in Peru, so we have teams over there and I'm constantly in and out. [00:03:37] Speaker C: What are some of the big questions that are driving your conservation work right now? [00:03:41] Speaker B: We have a few different projects and I like to go to areas where may seem obvious, but people haven't gone yet. That means both location wise and topic wise. And so we have a big project on native bees that are also known as stingless bees right now. And the original interest to that, it started because first, most people don't even know stingless bees exist. And in fact, they are the most widespread bee in the Amazon. They're older than the honeybees, but also in Peru, with the significance that they hold for Amazonians in terms of traditional medicine, nobody had explored their honey, which was heavily used during COVID So there were so many questions for something so widely used with such a rich culture and history, that that's why we started the project. We have another one starting next year, where we're looking to collaboratively build the first encyclopedia of Ashaninka, traditional knowledge about plants and animals that they use in their rituals, medicinally, culturally, and in others, because that type of information typically doesn't get transmitted in written forms, but rather orally. There is so much of an urgency and desire from the communities that we work with to have this documented. And so we are entering these spaces in a kind of merging it with science, but also with storytelling and really hand in hand. So everything comes out in the native languages and in a way that our indigenous partners are the leaders of. [00:05:20] Speaker C: How is indigenous wisdom different than scientific information? I guess that's where maybe these two concepts coalesce in a way, and I'm not asking this with a value judgment on either, but I would like people to be able to understand, actually, why indigenous knowledge wisdom offers so much more understanding. [00:05:41] Speaker B: It's a great question. I've been exploring it quite deeply because I'm really in depth in the writing project right now. So traditionally, indigenous knowledge across multiple cultures around the world has been passed on orally, through art, through dances, and so it gets enriched over time, throughout generations. But I think, in a way, it has been largely pushed aside as a thing that natives are doing, quote unquote, and they are doing it on their area, maybe quoting it as information coming from less educated people. When then, historically, there has been this movement or this idea that western scientific knowledge, it's more comprehensive, is more accurate, and as such, we should only follow this type of information. And yet this comes both from my personal experience growing up with an indigenous healer, as a grandmother, but also throughout my work, beyond even the Amazon rainforest, because I get to connect with indigenous people in other parts of the world as well, the US, Asia. So I've had the privilege to really get to connect with so many groups that have these ancestral ways of living, which we also known as cosmovision, their ways of seeing the world. And it's really within this cosmovision that we find the door towards this ancestral wisdom, despite of the fact that they haven't been documented in written forms. If we really dive deep into all that, it means for agriculture, for medicine, for cosmetics, for nutrition, for raising a society, we see that there's so much more accuracy in how to do this in a way that is in harmony with the surrounding environments. To give you an example, for a long time, the Amazon rainforest was considered this space where mostly nomads lived in small tribes, really isolated from one another. However, with a lot of more information that is coming through discoveries, through science and anthropology, we are learning that there were such complex civilizations and the idea to have such a rich city and populations in a place that is considered infertile to grow so much food. How do you build a society without food? That is impossible. And the deeper you dive, you learn that Amazonians had found a way to manipulate the chemistry of soils in the Amazon, as well as the waterways, so tapping even in underground water, creating channels, making water accessible in areas so remote that one wouldn't know how to do it nowadays without having intervention from western knowledge to be able to sustain populations that were as big as London in comparison to back in those times. So they really were kind of the place of origin of agriculture in our planet in a way, being able to. To facilitate large growth of crops from yuca and multiple other fruits and essentials in a way that didn't negatively contribute to their environment. So it is that type of knowledge that I think we've just kind of ignored for a very long time, because perhaps they didn't fit necessarily the scientific process of thinking or researching. But also I am kind of in disagreement with that as well. And I think that was part of why I myself wanted to go through the full steps of completing a PhD to really dive as far as I could in scientific research. When you talk about scientific discovery or way of thinking, you are analytical, you observe, you are annotating, you are measuring in whichever way that means. But it's all really based on close observation and readjustment according to that, really indigenous wisdom is not too far from that. All of the indigenous leaders that I get to collaborate with and learn from, I see that they have so much more of an attuned system to observing around them, to understanding what plants, animals may be using when they are sick. So that's sometimes how they get inspired to find new medicines in nature around them. And so I do think there is a scientific method that indigenous wisdom has been following that we just haven't been listening to. And so I think it is time now to bring that forward. [00:10:08] Speaker C: It's a beautiful vision because it points to a worldview that is the opposite of nihilistic. I feel like scientific experimentation starts in a lab, a very controlled situation, and then tries to apply that model out in the world a lot of the times, but goes out into the world with this kind of blank canvas. But the world is this complex, rich opposite of a blank canvas, right? Whereas in traditional modes of knowledge and knowing and being, it feels like there is the inheritance of generations of understanding, of the complexities of processing, all the richness of interrelations, that then perhaps an individual is starting to distill or make acute observations in terms of what's happening in their surroundings. So perhaps there is a wider understanding of plant species, so that when there is an unknown illness, there is a palette from which to begin with, rather than let's go just start testing or looking to discover. Species which, of course, have always been there or are evolving, are part of a larger continuum. So perhaps the indigenous healer or native healer will understand the role of a particular genus of plants and understand this is a place to look within, within the complexity, within the wider framework that they're starting with. [00:11:43] Speaker B: That's completely right. I think all the methods have merit on their own. The best way I can describe my opinion about this is, for example, when you're learning dance, they encourage you to learn all the techniques and all the steps which take so much of your brain power at first that you are not transmitting any emotion yet, because you just focus on the actual muscle contractions and movement and direction and et cetera. But then once you are familiarized with all of that, to just play, to just let it be and do mix with that human spirit side, and that is how art gets created. I think, in a similar way, it's amazing what the human mind can do with genetics and chemistry. We literally have decoded the entire human genome by now, which was something we were only dreaming about when I was growing up. We have reached such an in depth perspective that perhaps it is just a reminder that now we have the ability to play a bit more and bring in that human in nature spirit that you're talking about, so that we can have methods that are holistic, that are not just trying to impose and try to figure it out afterwards, because typically that's when you don't account for all the repercussions of your work, which is what we've been saying. And really I think it's the catalyst for all the negative environmental impacts that we have. And many of them are not because people are necessarily careless or don't want to contribute to saving the environment. Sometimes it's just out of pure oopsie, I didn't know. But yes, of course, because we had not seen it, as you mentioned, in this complexity that nature is, and that is something that indigenous wisdom does naturally. At its core I've encountered communities that know about the cycles of fish so well intertwined that they know the area, the times they're going to be fishing, and they know the times they need to be relying on other type of foods. For example, other communities that have seen a lot of frogs getting adapted in the high altitudes where they live. Those frogs are the poisonous, but they have learned how to remove the poison in times where those frogs are breeding in high quantities. So you're not depleting their population, but you're still allowing yourself to have food resources when other options are not possible and you don't want your family to die. As the amazonian cosmovision says, you take as you give. So then there's that balance that gets maintained throughout time. [00:14:00] Speaker C: So there's this way of living through reciprocity that then translates into seasonal behavior, seasonal respect in terms of how and what to eat, how and what to grow and where to be as well. [00:14:14] Speaker B: Literally, it's actually a term within amazonian and andean cosmo visions in South America that it's known as living beautifully. It has its translations in multiple languages, from Quechua to Ashaninka to a few others. I don't want to butcher the pronunciation right now, but it translates to living beautifully. And it is that concept that for you to be living beautifully not just internally but externally as well, you have to be in that constant state of reciprocity and imbalance. So then as long as your surroundings are okay, you are okay. So there is that deep understanding that the human being won't be imbalanced and won't be fully okay, or living beautifully if it's surrounded or dying. [00:14:58] Speaker C: My understanding of that sensibility of living beautifully, my cursory understanding of this, is that it also depends on relational goods such as trust, that become points of exchange or ways of creating value systems or goods and services. Theres this other dimension of value that can be shared through just living well together. Its not just an individuals actions, there is value created through relationality. Cooperation is valued. [00:15:35] Speaker B: It is definitely a concept that they do specify. It is a community concept. So it is a pursuit of a community as well as the individual self. I would say a lot of indigenous communities have suffered some of the darkest phases of humanity. So I think trust is a dual word and can be fragile. But at the same time, I think there is an inherent trust of the processes of the earth and of the concept that the pacha mama, the mother earth, is constantly given and is so generous that as long as you are showing that generosity and reciprocity, then you will be okay as well. There are so many small practices and rituals that I have noticed, and I've loved to dive into even the language that people use, although that's not my expertise, because it tells me so much. Just the idea. For example, in the Ashaninka world, there is a mountain that is known as the Ave Reriri, considered the God of creation. And every time you enter the mountain, you're entering into one of the most powerful gods. So whether they need to go there for hunting or for gathering fruit, when they're running low with their crops, they ask for permission, and they are basically making a commitment to not be destructive, not leave trash behind, and only take what they need to not be greedy as well. There is that concept that if they are greedy, they will be punished because they won't be left anything afterwards for their peers or their even on family members or generations to come. [00:17:09] Speaker C: It reminds me of what you were saying about learning from your grandmother, and I was wondering if maybe you could share a lesson about healing that you gleaned from her. [00:17:20] Speaker B: My grandmother is one of the most fascinating people I've met. Her only dream always has been to attend school. She never had the chance to go to school. Back in the day, in her small town in a rural community, women were not allowed to go to school. That changed with my mom's generation. So my grandmother worked so hard to send everybody, everyone in the family to school. But she has this concept that everything in nature can hear you. She always shares this idea that plants will understand in a way, what you're saying and what your intentions are. And so she approaches her gardening, of the medicinal resources that she grows with that approach. And I feel like that is her interpretation of how valuable nature is, regardless of the validity of what she's saying. I think just her storytelling, since I was little, made me so fond to be protective of everything that is around us, and made me so curious to understand how does nature have the ability to cure us. Like, how is that even a concept? How did that came to be? And then just diving so deep. So I think her lesson that everything in nature can hear you and is alive is a powerful one that I now see reflected throughout all the indigenous communities that I work with, coming in through different stories, perhaps of creation or different rituals or different processes, but really with that underlying tone that nature is alive and we are an extension of. [00:18:56] Speaker C: It as well, to kind of turn that understanding of nature can hear us inside out, then how can we better hear nature? [00:19:05] Speaker B: There are multiple ways in which communities look to access these language of plants, or language of animals, or language of mother earth in general. Some of them, it's through dancing. So reaching this type of almost meditative states through music and dancing, that you also see ancestrally in african communities, for example. And if, when you look at the science of it, there is a lot of research that also shows that certain tunes or drummings can literally, like, ignite neural pathways in your brain to feel as if you are in meditation. And we know how powerful that can be, cognitively speaking. And so I think that is a powerful way. There are other more in depth rituals, like, for example, ayahuasca. It's a major one. And that has been, for as long as we know of it, an important way in which Amazonians connect to these unspoken knowledge and wisdom of plants. They actually claim that that is how they know what plants to use for certain diseases. When I was a little girl, that is not a tradition that my grandmother had. So I just learned what she was telling me, and she learned it from the elderly around, or from experimentation or observation while we were talking. That not acknowledged scientific method that she already had. But then, as I started to get closer to amazonian communities and my own amazonian roots, I was fascinated to learn that most of the shamans and the healers have most of their knowledge transmitted to them through messages that they cannot necessarily put into words, but that tell them which plants are good for what type of diseases or what combinations to seek or where to go for solutions. You can give any explanation to that. You can neglect it as much as one wants. But ultimately, that is how communities have managed to survive for a long time. That is how a lot of them kind of agreed without speaking to each other, that there were a few specific plans that everyone ended up using throughout Covid, although they were not communicating with one another, I noticed that a lot of them were relying on subsets of less than five resources all the same. So there's just something up there that we just haven't fully decoded, and perhaps we may not be able to. And I think that's something that with a scientific mind, we need to be okay with uncertainty and still be willing to pursue knowledge, even if there are realms that we perhaps not fully cannot measure or understand. [00:21:37] Speaker C: To pursue that understanding, just for a moment, we know that psychedelics turn off or turn down the default mode network, which filters how much information our neural network or neural circuits are receiving, which allows us to sense or see details that are less visible, less apparent to us than if that filtration system was happening. But then there's also this sense of innate communication that you're speaking to in terms of receiving, which is not going out into the world and looking around and sensing. So that piece of it is really astonishing. It's something that I've experienced as well, and there's no way to verify that. But what you're saying in terms of the disconnect in communication between different groups and then all using the same kind of subset of plants or treatments during the pandemic, that is a kind of validation in and of itself, that there's some kind of effectiveness happening in what's being transmitted in these internal meditative experiences or states. [00:22:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's beautiful. I think it's fascinating. I think when one goes so deeply in scientific research, it bothers you to not understand something that you cannot quite pinpoint down, like, it must be wrong. There must be something off. And I have been there and thought that in certain scenarios. But I think just as a humanity, as a society in general, we need to remember this almost mysticism, that it's inherently out there in nature. That is how humans have interacted for a long time. I think in a way, that is what brings also a certain sense of hope, of illusion in a positive way. And I think with so many people now thinking, oh, we live in a simulation, or being so ingrained in technology, which is so useful in so many ways, yet there is something that is missing or playing with our sense of belonging, in our sense of being. And you can see it in the younger generations, in my generation as well. And when we talk about solving environmental crisis in the future, yes, of course we have to look at the literal solutions that need to be happening for CO2 and et cetera, but we also have to be looking at the people that are making those decisions, and that there is a space there, a void that can be addressed at least or explored with the type of indigenous wisdom. [00:24:00] Speaker C: It makes me so happy that we haven't, quote, figured everything out, that this mystery of being and being alive is so much bigger than any one person's understanding, or even our collective understanding as a species, keeps things fulfilling in terms of just being able to feel a part of something bigger, rather than feel trapped in something fatalistic, that we know the deterministic outcomes, or everything's going to go this way. I guess that brings us to story storytelling and cultural narratives. You're translating cultural understanding, and what kind of narrative is emerging in relation to what we call the ecological crisis? And how is it shaping your relationship to how do we get through this? [00:24:46] Speaker B: It's a great question. I think my relationship with culture came as an unavoidable, beautiful step that I've taken on, because when we study science, it's not just about studying nature, that would be only studying one side of the moon. But rather, I think culture is so ingrained in and around, around biodiversity that they are just an intertwined entity that we have to take into consideration if we're looking at understanding one things fully or to provide or design solutions that are actually long term and that are well ingrained and maintained. That has led me to, I think, see not just the work that I do, but the connections that I build with people in such different light that has open space to a lot of conversations and questions and curiosity that perhaps I wouldn't have started with a long time ago when I was dreaming of conducting science in the Amazon. And that has led me to understand that there are so many of the youth in indigenous communities that are keen to take leadership and to be the ones that are taking decisions in a lot of this work, whether that is in policy or whether that is in science or conservation. And they are well equipped with speaking not just the physical language, but all of these cultural language that we're discussing right now, and have such a unique perspective that we can learn so much from them. So the way we start projects is by fully first understanding how traditionally things are done and what the communities are looking to get out of. How can science contribute any type of goals specifically that they have, and who within their communities want to take that leadership on? And that has really been such an amazing, not surprising, but just incredible window of seeing park rangers stand up or seeing other people that perhaps were not fully outspoken in certain areas, but that do feel the drive to also then becoming scientists, also then becoming conservationists, and then becoming the agents that speak between their community and the rest of the world. And so now I make sure that all of those people that want to take that level of participation or active involvement are co authors in the work, get to design things also from the ground. It is an exchange rather than an imposition or rather than here. This is what I think is best. And that's even me being peruvian and having growing up in this land. Even then, I acknowledge I'm not the one living there 24/7 right now. And so there is something that only comes uniquely from them. So I think the cultural narrative is that we are seeing almost this new generation of indigenous communities rise up in a very synergistic and collaborative and hopeful way. Now, with social media, you see also a few other indigenous leaders, very young, some of them from other countries, making their culture cool again, making it sharing things about living in their community, in their ecosystem, and about their upbringing, so that the younger generations have someone to look up to, because a lot of the media doesn't display this. So there is such a big misrepresentation and make people feel a strengthened sense of identity, which I think we need. And so it makes me excited to be kind of at this position where my vision with the foundation that I installed is to just create a platform for all of these people that are wanting to do something, can do it, whether they're associated to academia or not. People can still be scientists even though they're not associated to academia. But guess what? You can still collaborate with it, because we should be all open to collaboration. That is how we will actually create change. And so it's creating almost this new space that hopefully can just emerge and encourage so many more leaders to do. [00:28:29] Speaker C: This type of work within that platform and within that vision. What does success look like? [00:28:34] Speaker B: To me, that is, any person within the Amazon and the Andes that wants to be leading groundbreaking conservation science work mixed with culture, that they can do it from their own lands, then you don't need to be leaving your country to have that sort of impact, to be able to tell your story to the rest of the world, and to be doing high quality, high throughput experiments or activities right there that you can achieve that. I think, in my opinion, I was able to look for by having to go and study outside of my family and et cetera. But now the ability to do it within a space and just giving you that voice, I think that it's hopefully how we will protect the remaining biodiversity and culture that we have in our planet. [00:29:22] Speaker C: And so your foundation is obviously providing organizational resources, other kinds of resources, a communication platform. What are the biggest challenges still that you're seeing, though, for realizing that vision. [00:29:33] Speaker B: We are a very young organization still. I think a lot of the funding that is out there is not necessarily super supportive of young new organizations or this type of work that may be focused on species that are not well documented. So that's something that happened to us a lot with the stingless bee project. We've been able to receive support now to continue the work. But at the beginning, one of the biggest hurdles was, well, this is not an assessed species according to conservation priority list. And I'm like, well, okay, but that's because nobody has done the study. So it was almost like a circle then. I cannot give you the money because nobody has done the study on it. So then you cannot do the study. When we have knowledge and information from the field and from people over the last few years that they are disappearing, that they are vulnerable, that they are being impacted by deforestation, pesticides and et cetera, it was just a. And I think that happens often because, in a way, we do need a lot of these priorities to guide efforts and to guide things. I completely understand that, but we should just be mindful that those do not become restrictive of groups that want to start something new and that are coming a little bit outside of the circle, perhaps not fully in academia, but do having the resources and the collaborations in place, that has been one of the biggest hurdles that we continue to go through. But besides that, communities have been so receptive, more projects are emerging. We need to take a little bit of a pause until we're developing more leaders that we can all take it all together. [00:31:03] Speaker C: Two divergent questions. One is there's a lot of lip service right now in the international sphere of let's uplift indigenous voices, native voices, let's bring them to the table, let's let them design the table that they want. Do you feel like that is actually happening? And two, your foundation and your work did intervene in this loop that you're talking about. How did you do that effectively? How did you create the work on the stainless bee and get the work started? Because I think that's valuable for other people who might be caught in that circle. [00:31:33] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's a great question. So for the first one, I would say yes and no, because there's definitely been more space for representation. And I won't pretend like I know how those situations have been because I haven't been there to see them. I just kind of get the feedback from the people directly or from others around. So I think. I think some countries and some organizations are actually following the steps on that. So not only opening the space to have an indigenous leader be sitting on the tables and raising the hand or giving an opinion, but actually taking that information into consideration, into policy, into guides and et cetera, while others are absolutely not. And so it just stays in this. Oh, I brought in the person, I showed the diversity and then that's as far as I'm going to go. I checked my list and then that's it. But I think we just need more push and more people in general anywhere around because the Internet is so powerful to continue advocating for that, to show more transparency from all of these agencies, corporations, meetings that happen in conferences around the world to follow up, not just to show the initial this is the photo and I've taken it, but not what are you doing to follow up consistently. And so I think I would like to see more of that to ensure that it does not just stay as a smoke screen. I've also notice that a lot of the support perhaps says that it's coming to indigenous group, but in reality you have to be really careful who within a country is your bridge between those, whether all the funds are actually getting in there. And I say this because I have seen it in person. There was one space between the Amazon and the Andes that we accessed really remote, one of the farthest, deepest communities I've ever been to. The community we were working with, they represent over 25 indigenous communities in the central and southern Amazonia. And they point at a specific area in the route and they say, you see that there was an organization that got $2 million from somewhere, international donors to do reforestation there. And to this date that's stay as a naked area because nobody goes and follow up, nobody goes and checks because it's so far remote. They come and take photos and then it just doesn't go as far as that. And so I think there needs to be more open platforms that facilitate that direct connection with indigenous groups and facilitates the support so that they learn the process because they may not be too familiarized with filling out these forms or with completing these reports and etcetera, or even have bank accounts. That also happens. And so it's not just about giving them the money, but I think developing a team that can provide that constant support until they can fly on their own and then continue because they are willing to do the work and they will do it and they find resources and create resourceful and creative ways to do it. So I think I would say that's about the first one and then the second one, we just had to be creative in the activities that we propose. Originally, we were going a bit deeper into the science because there were specific questions that the communities wanted to get to the information of, so that they can increase the prices on honey sales, which allows them to continuously protect the rainforest and protect more bees, or to get other information for another part of the conservation efforts. That was one of the hardest loops for us to break in terms of the bees are nothing, not endangered or we cannot fund it. So instead we started by looking at spaces where perhaps the focus wasn't on the bees, but rather on capacity building and being able to start providing support on that way. So we ask, okay, the only funding available we see right now is in terms of capacity building, type of training would be most useful for you. And the answer was like, well, actually, in the meantime, we have this group of women that are looking to become beekeepers. Maybe we can engage with scientists opening the space so others can come and help us do the bits and pieces that we haven't been able to get funding for, and that opens us up for more collaborations. And so, for example, right now we have a few groups from the US coming and contributing to that. And so just being a bit more in love with the dream rather than the pathway to get there, it's not a solution for it all, because there's definitely other spaces that we have, I don't know, dozens of communities around the country that would want to get these results, but we still haven't been able to kind of crack the code on that. We are not going to stop trying and then continue to push forward to that end. [00:35:53] Speaker C: Where would you like more support at this point in your foundation's journey and work? [00:35:59] Speaker B: On the scientific research aspect, for sure. Also on the storytelling flexibility, we have been able to provide support for capacity building, which is incredible, but I would like to elevate further the storytelling, and that's something that the communities want to have ownership over, too, as to how those stories are being told. We would like for organizations that have that kind of ability and expertise really, to come and provide that support and that training in those tools or equipments, so then they can tell multiple stories within their own, not necessarily attached to. Or it has to be a story on deforestation. Well, what about if there was one on regeneration instead? It's just such technicalities that I don't think we necessarily see the repercussions unless we are in it. That and the flexibility to do scientific work that has this direct impact that we have shown can have this direct impact also in communities, while also expanding knowledge, whether they are within currently assessed species or not. I think those two would be some of the biggest supports we could get right now. [00:37:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I've definitely experienced in the media sphere the flattened stories that make it through or get distributed. If your story doesn't fit into the bucket that they're looking for, it just doesn't count and it's not going to get supported. [00:37:20] Speaker B: Oh, I just was just going to add. I think something else is we also talk a lot about representation in tv work, and I think it's gone a lot better around the world compared to many years, but I think not as far as we can still go. And so I think seeing more indigenous faces on tv, leading shows, leading these type of initiatives, that is also that part of strengthening culture and identity that we need to keep encouraging local leaders to continue doing this work and seeing it, of course, in their own languages as well, but also viralized. Something as simple. Like, even in the deepest communities I've been, they will be able to catch Internet here and there. Dua Lipa is being listened to, Shakir is being listened to. Like, they will know the latest movie trailers, at least, that they are able to kind of catch. And it is this kind of big world international attention that makes them follow this type of friends and imagine the power of being able to have the face of somebody that comes from these areas. At that level of viralization. It could have this catalytic effect of saying, oh, my gosh, okay, my culture, or somebody that comes from these areas or has a similar upbringing as me. It is that valued around the world. It is that appreciated around the world. And perhaps that is one of the steps also needed to elevate all of this knowledge even more and to give people more confidence to continue. So, yeah, that's another thing that would be personal dream to see more of. [00:38:51] Speaker C: You're evoking this continuum of cultural history and storytelling, particularly where I can glimpse that the kind of mainstream pop culture of Hollywood is really just a blip. And the disrepresentation of other voices and the stories that have been told for much, much longer is perhaps ascending now. And the period that we've experienced as mainstream or pop culture will actually not be remembered in 100 years. Maybe jazz or maybe a few particular ideas or concepts or artistic genres. But in many ways, we're in this blip where the older stories, which become the new stories again, eventually will resurface. We'll find representation, we'll find voices. That's kind of a prayer, I guess, and maybe an optimistic way to feel into the future that we're creating. Because this podcast is produced by the International Wildlife Coexistence Network, I want to ask what role coexistence might play in your work. [00:39:56] Speaker B: It's at the basis of all we do. It is the concept of coexistence between people and nature, between indigenous knowledge and modern science, between biodiversity and culture, the idea that one should be studying both. I even love the term biocultural heritage that has existed for a while, but I think more formally coined by the United nations not so long ago. This idea that to study nature, we have to be studying both. So I would say coexistence is what we strive for, but also is the foundation for the work we do. [00:40:30] Speaker C: That's so amazing to hear that that value is there and is actively part of the work that you do. But you were talking about listening to nature, and I was wondering if there's a moment you feel like you really well, when you felt really in tune or moved by what you were hearing. [00:40:48] Speaker B: Oh, that's such a great question. I get that moment quite often, and there's always like, oh, there's this new thing. But one of the most impactful times, I would say it's the idea that everything out there has a spirit. And when we die, our human spirit goes back into nature. With that approach, when one listens to nature, we are listening to this humanistic kind of experience, which makes you rethink whether you're going to cut a tree or not, or whether you are going to contaminate a river or not. And that is a constant mindset and questioning that happens within the language that indigenous communities use amongst themselves and amongst others. And so I think that concept of listening is something that I try to apply as well, but that could be so powerful if we were to share it with more people and get more people to have that almost like a filter behind every decision. [00:41:47] Speaker C: It's that disconnect that keeps us cutting down forests or putting waste into oceans. If we had the sense of immediate impact of those choices, of those actions, which are often industrial or collective, systematic outcomes, rather than individual choices, it would be a different world. It would very quickly be a different world. [00:42:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't think it's about stopping activities. It's just about finding a way to do it in a balanced way, because I understand society evolves and grows, but it is a way of doing it harmoniously, even if that means slightly slower at times as well. And so it's nothing like Amazonians won't cut a tree here and there. If they need wood to build their homes or to expand their homes or to make a boat. It is just about they won't do it in a way that is distracting the source of food and shelter and space for living. Again, it just goes back to that concept of balance. [00:42:49] Speaker C: Well, this has been fantastic discussion and I'm so excited that we'll get to follow up with you for another discussion about your forthcoming book early next year. [00:42:59] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I'll keep you posted. Excited for it? Yeah, this was fantastic. Thank you so much. [00:43:12] Speaker A: Our thanks to Doctor Rosa for joining us. Her foundation is the Amazon Research Institute. You can find out [email protected] dot this podcast exists to prove that it is possible for both wildlife and humans to coexist. If you'd like to support, please go to wildlifecoexistence.org and make a donation. Thanks for listening to for the wild ones and being part of our efforts to transform our relationship with nature and build a world in service to life.